Interview with Dr Orlagh Gairne, Head of Archaeology at the National Museum of Ireland
You live in a beautiful Georgian house on the outskirts of Dublin. Have you always lived there?
I moved into my house when I returned to Ireland from university. I was very lucky to get a place there, as I was not technically a student. In those days, it was converted into student lets but my grandmother knew the landlord so that’s how I got a place to live.
The building was not looked after very well but I did the best I could with my flat. It seemed such a shame to let the grand old building go into decline so my grandmother persuaded the .landlord to sell it to her and gradually over the next few years the students moved out we restored the house back to its original condition. My grandmother was marvelous; she had an eye for detail and left nothing untouched, even the decoration and furniture is as it should be. I’m so lucky to have inherited it when she died, I simply adore living there.
It must be like living in a time capsule. Do you like that period in history?
I love the elegance of the Georgian period, but even though the house is true to the time, it does have modern conveniences. The plumbing for example, there are a few more bathrooms and the kitchen is completely modern. It has of course been done sympathetically and even these modern rooms have the feel of the period. We managed to create that with clever decoration and lighting. All of the other rooms are as they should be with decor and furniture to match.
Have you always lived in the city?
When I was a child, I lived in Sandycove in Dun Laoghaire. My grandmother brought me up; my parents were both academics and travelled a lot, their work took them to the United States of America, it was no life for a child.
Do you regret the fact that your parents were not there for you?
Not, not at all. My childhood was idyllic; I spent most of my time outdoors exploring the shore along the bay. I discovered my first fossils there when I was about ten years old. I loved living with my grandmother; she was always there for me. She encouraged my ambitions, she was my inspiration.
Were you always interested in history?
Oh yes, for as long as I can remember. My grandmother used to take me into Dublin on the DART or we’d catch a bus, they were green in those days. Her knowledge of architecture, churches and social history was amazing. She was full of stories and she had the ability to make history come alive. She kept me enthralled with tales of her childhood and was always reminding me of how things used to be. She told me of when she was a young woman working in Bewley’s on Grafton street. All the girls who worked there had to wear a uniform; a bit like a maid and it was there she met my grandfather. She would take me into Bewley’s for a cup of coffee and a biscuit every time we went into Dublin. One of my most vivid memories was when she took me to the National Museum for the first time; it was an amazing experience that I shall never forget. Most kids of my age would drag their parents to Quinnworth’s or The Fun Factory, but for me it was always the museum.
Working here at the museum must be your dream come true.
I am the luckiest person alive; I simply adore being associated with the museum. I think that from my very first visit I knew that one day I would become part of what we have here. I get to work on all kinds of projects in Ireland, Britain and we have links with museums and historical groups all over Europe.
Did you ever want to do anything else?
I went through teenage phases just like everyone else but I always knew what I wanted to do. I worked hard at school to get the grades I needed to secure a place at university.
You studied in London, why not Dublin?
I wanted to move away for a while, experience life on my own, broaden my horizons so to speak and I chose London for many reasons. I have a few cousins who live in London and there is a large Irish community so I thought I would never be homesick. I also wanted to see a city, which boasts a population equal to that of Ireland and it was certainly something of a culture shock. London is truly amazing, it’s a city stuffed full of historical monuments and ancient buildings, it is diverse in its population and culture and it has the most amazing buzz.
What have you been working on recently?
I have been organising an archaeological dig, which starts in County Meath next month but first Jerry, my boyfriend and I are off on holiday. When we get back, I’m hoping to spend a few weeks working on the dig myself. We have a number of student archaeologists working for us at the moment and it will be good to get stuck in with them.
Can you tell us more about this dig?
I’m afraid not, you see we have to keep these things confidential because unfortunately the moment we reveal where we are working it draws the attention of amateurs and metal detectorists. I’m not saying that these people have no right to do what they do, often it’s their initial finds that develop into important archaeological sites. We like to work in partnership with interested parties and I am dedicated to passing on what we learn by displaying the finds as soon as each dig is complete.
What about your long term future, do you see any major changes on the horizon?
I don’t think so. There are a few projects coming up within the organisation and of course, I am involved with promoting the Belgae Torc and all the other artifacts in our collection. I will be giving more lectures in the theatre here at the museum and there is some discussion about taking those out into the colleges and universities around the country. There seems to be a developing interest in history in general at the moment and that is a good thing. My grandmother always used to say, ‘look after the past and the future will take care of itself.’
Thank you to Dr Orlagh Gairne for taking time out to talk to me, Katherine Kinsella working in partnership with the Peoples Independent Irish News. May 2016
I moved into my house when I returned to Ireland from university. I was very lucky to get a place there, as I was not technically a student. In those days, it was converted into student lets but my grandmother knew the landlord so that’s how I got a place to live.
The building was not looked after very well but I did the best I could with my flat. It seemed such a shame to let the grand old building go into decline so my grandmother persuaded the .landlord to sell it to her and gradually over the next few years the students moved out we restored the house back to its original condition. My grandmother was marvelous; she had an eye for detail and left nothing untouched, even the decoration and furniture is as it should be. I’m so lucky to have inherited it when she died, I simply adore living there.
It must be like living in a time capsule. Do you like that period in history?
I love the elegance of the Georgian period, but even though the house is true to the time, it does have modern conveniences. The plumbing for example, there are a few more bathrooms and the kitchen is completely modern. It has of course been done sympathetically and even these modern rooms have the feel of the period. We managed to create that with clever decoration and lighting. All of the other rooms are as they should be with decor and furniture to match.
Have you always lived in the city?
When I was a child, I lived in Sandycove in Dun Laoghaire. My grandmother brought me up; my parents were both academics and travelled a lot, their work took them to the United States of America, it was no life for a child.
Do you regret the fact that your parents were not there for you?
Not, not at all. My childhood was idyllic; I spent most of my time outdoors exploring the shore along the bay. I discovered my first fossils there when I was about ten years old. I loved living with my grandmother; she was always there for me. She encouraged my ambitions, she was my inspiration.
Were you always interested in history?
Oh yes, for as long as I can remember. My grandmother used to take me into Dublin on the DART or we’d catch a bus, they were green in those days. Her knowledge of architecture, churches and social history was amazing. She was full of stories and she had the ability to make history come alive. She kept me enthralled with tales of her childhood and was always reminding me of how things used to be. She told me of when she was a young woman working in Bewley’s on Grafton street. All the girls who worked there had to wear a uniform; a bit like a maid and it was there she met my grandfather. She would take me into Bewley’s for a cup of coffee and a biscuit every time we went into Dublin. One of my most vivid memories was when she took me to the National Museum for the first time; it was an amazing experience that I shall never forget. Most kids of my age would drag their parents to Quinnworth’s or The Fun Factory, but for me it was always the museum.
Working here at the museum must be your dream come true.
I am the luckiest person alive; I simply adore being associated with the museum. I think that from my very first visit I knew that one day I would become part of what we have here. I get to work on all kinds of projects in Ireland, Britain and we have links with museums and historical groups all over Europe.
Did you ever want to do anything else?
I went through teenage phases just like everyone else but I always knew what I wanted to do. I worked hard at school to get the grades I needed to secure a place at university.
You studied in London, why not Dublin?
I wanted to move away for a while, experience life on my own, broaden my horizons so to speak and I chose London for many reasons. I have a few cousins who live in London and there is a large Irish community so I thought I would never be homesick. I also wanted to see a city, which boasts a population equal to that of Ireland and it was certainly something of a culture shock. London is truly amazing, it’s a city stuffed full of historical monuments and ancient buildings, it is diverse in its population and culture and it has the most amazing buzz.
What have you been working on recently?
I have been organising an archaeological dig, which starts in County Meath next month but first Jerry, my boyfriend and I are off on holiday. When we get back, I’m hoping to spend a few weeks working on the dig myself. We have a number of student archaeologists working for us at the moment and it will be good to get stuck in with them.
Can you tell us more about this dig?
I’m afraid not, you see we have to keep these things confidential because unfortunately the moment we reveal where we are working it draws the attention of amateurs and metal detectorists. I’m not saying that these people have no right to do what they do, often it’s their initial finds that develop into important archaeological sites. We like to work in partnership with interested parties and I am dedicated to passing on what we learn by displaying the finds as soon as each dig is complete.
What about your long term future, do you see any major changes on the horizon?
I don’t think so. There are a few projects coming up within the organisation and of course, I am involved with promoting the Belgae Torc and all the other artifacts in our collection. I will be giving more lectures in the theatre here at the museum and there is some discussion about taking those out into the colleges and universities around the country. There seems to be a developing interest in history in general at the moment and that is a good thing. My grandmother always used to say, ‘look after the past and the future will take care of itself.’
Thank you to Dr Orlagh Gairne for taking time out to talk to me, Katherine Kinsella working in partnership with the Peoples Independent Irish News. May 2016
Interview with Jerome Knowles
Mr Knowles, do you mind if I start by asking you, how did you meet Dr Gairne?
Please call me Jerry and no, I don’t mind at all.
Orlagh and I met just over a year ago. She was giving a talk one evening at the museum on Life in Celtic Ireland or something like that and when it was finished, I took the opportunity to chat with her. I enjoyed her talk and I certainly enjoyed her company. We hit it off from the start and our relationship has developed from there.
You are a student at Trinity College here in Dublin. Can you tell me a little more about your area of study?
I am a student of history but what I do is a little different. I specialise in Neo-Pagan faiths such as Wicca, Neo-Druidism, Germanic Neo-Paganism and Slavic Neo-Paganism just to name a few. My area of study includes Polytheism, Animism and Pantheism, but there are others. These are mostly ancient ethnic religions as found in historical folklore sources. One of my favourite quotes is by JRR Tolkein; ‘the distortion of Germanic mythology by the Nazi regime, Hitler’s corruption of that noble northern spirit,’ which I used as a title for one of my papers.
Wow, that is an unusual area of study. Why did you choose this subject?
I have to admit that it’s quite a specialised subject. It stems from my interest in ancient religions and once I began to dig deeper I discovered that my questions outnumbered the answers.
There is no set curriculum. I have to attend a number of lectures then research around the subjects. My essays have to satisfy both my tutors and the awarding body. It is quite a unique course but the guidelines are very strict.
I’m sure we could go discussing this fascinating subject all evening but unfortunately we have to move on. From your accent, you are obviously an Englishman. Where in England do you come from and why did you choose to study in Dublin?
I’m a Man of Kent and proud of it; that means I was born east of the River Medway. We have a thing about that where I come from, you should look it up.
There are of course some very good universities in London, but I wanted to move away from home and London was not far enough. I did a little research and narrowed my choice to Edinburgh or Dublin, the frozen north or the emerald isle? The choice was not an easy one to make, but I ended up in Dublin and as it turns out, I made the right choice.
You come from a family of historians. Tell me a little about that.
My father teaches history in a secondary school, but it was my great grandfather Sir Geoffrey Knowles who was the family historian. He became quite well known after the discovery of the Belgae Torc in 1912. Of course, he didn’t do it all alone, his archaeological partner was Sir Cecil Mountjoy and their benefactor Lord Sevington-Smythe. Unfortunately, both men died in strange circumstances during the dig. Some say that the whole project was cursed, a bit like when Howard Carter discovered the tomb of Tutankhamen. The Belgae Torc was a significant find, but the terrible tragedies did nothing to dampen public interest in British history.
It was indeed an exciting time for British history. Being an historian yourself, does this affect your relationship with Dr Gairne?
Our fields of experience are very different and we do at times find ourselves at loggerheads. Our academic disagreements can be rather intense. You see, Orlagh is very passionate about her work and her beliefs are not always shall we say rational. She likes to believe in animal allies and she swears that she has experienced a dream quest, but I’m afraid that I don’t share some of her ideas. You might say that we agree to disagree. At times, we have had some amazing discussions and we regularly bounce ideas off each other. She is an amazing source of information and this can be invaluable.
Where do you see yourself going in the short term?
By this time next year, I should have completed my studies. I don’t intend to become settled in a cosy research post at a university and I’m certainly not yet ready to teach. I have one or two options developing but we will just have to wait and see.
Do you intend to return to England once you have completed your studies?
I can’t see myself going home, not just yet anyway. I love it here in Ireland and intend to stick around for the foreseeable future.
Do you mind my asking; does your future include Dr Orlagh Gairne?
I very much hope so.
Would you care to elaborate?
No. (Said with a cheeky grin).
Thank you to Jerome Knowles for talking with me so honestly.
Katherine Kinsella in conjunction with the Peoples Independent Irish News.
May 2016
Please call me Jerry and no, I don’t mind at all.
Orlagh and I met just over a year ago. She was giving a talk one evening at the museum on Life in Celtic Ireland or something like that and when it was finished, I took the opportunity to chat with her. I enjoyed her talk and I certainly enjoyed her company. We hit it off from the start and our relationship has developed from there.
You are a student at Trinity College here in Dublin. Can you tell me a little more about your area of study?
I am a student of history but what I do is a little different. I specialise in Neo-Pagan faiths such as Wicca, Neo-Druidism, Germanic Neo-Paganism and Slavic Neo-Paganism just to name a few. My area of study includes Polytheism, Animism and Pantheism, but there are others. These are mostly ancient ethnic religions as found in historical folklore sources. One of my favourite quotes is by JRR Tolkein; ‘the distortion of Germanic mythology by the Nazi regime, Hitler’s corruption of that noble northern spirit,’ which I used as a title for one of my papers.
Wow, that is an unusual area of study. Why did you choose this subject?
I have to admit that it’s quite a specialised subject. It stems from my interest in ancient religions and once I began to dig deeper I discovered that my questions outnumbered the answers.
There is no set curriculum. I have to attend a number of lectures then research around the subjects. My essays have to satisfy both my tutors and the awarding body. It is quite a unique course but the guidelines are very strict.
I’m sure we could go discussing this fascinating subject all evening but unfortunately we have to move on. From your accent, you are obviously an Englishman. Where in England do you come from and why did you choose to study in Dublin?
I’m a Man of Kent and proud of it; that means I was born east of the River Medway. We have a thing about that where I come from, you should look it up.
There are of course some very good universities in London, but I wanted to move away from home and London was not far enough. I did a little research and narrowed my choice to Edinburgh or Dublin, the frozen north or the emerald isle? The choice was not an easy one to make, but I ended up in Dublin and as it turns out, I made the right choice.
You come from a family of historians. Tell me a little about that.
My father teaches history in a secondary school, but it was my great grandfather Sir Geoffrey Knowles who was the family historian. He became quite well known after the discovery of the Belgae Torc in 1912. Of course, he didn’t do it all alone, his archaeological partner was Sir Cecil Mountjoy and their benefactor Lord Sevington-Smythe. Unfortunately, both men died in strange circumstances during the dig. Some say that the whole project was cursed, a bit like when Howard Carter discovered the tomb of Tutankhamen. The Belgae Torc was a significant find, but the terrible tragedies did nothing to dampen public interest in British history.
It was indeed an exciting time for British history. Being an historian yourself, does this affect your relationship with Dr Gairne?
Our fields of experience are very different and we do at times find ourselves at loggerheads. Our academic disagreements can be rather intense. You see, Orlagh is very passionate about her work and her beliefs are not always shall we say rational. She likes to believe in animal allies and she swears that she has experienced a dream quest, but I’m afraid that I don’t share some of her ideas. You might say that we agree to disagree. At times, we have had some amazing discussions and we regularly bounce ideas off each other. She is an amazing source of information and this can be invaluable.
Where do you see yourself going in the short term?
By this time next year, I should have completed my studies. I don’t intend to become settled in a cosy research post at a university and I’m certainly not yet ready to teach. I have one or two options developing but we will just have to wait and see.
Do you intend to return to England once you have completed your studies?
I can’t see myself going home, not just yet anyway. I love it here in Ireland and intend to stick around for the foreseeable future.
Do you mind my asking; does your future include Dr Orlagh Gairne?
I very much hope so.
Would you care to elaborate?
No. (Said with a cheeky grin).
Thank you to Jerome Knowles for talking with me so honestly.
Katherine Kinsella in conjunction with the Peoples Independent Irish News.
May 2016
Interview with Dr Pamela Rose
Extracts of an interview between Dr Pamela Rose and Katherine Kinsella for the Peoples Independent Irish news.
KK Thank you to Dr Pamela Rose for agreeing to take part in this interview. Dr Rose was one of the leading archaeologists who worked on a dig in County Meath this summer which proved to be the site of a significant Iron Age battle. She is an expert in Viking history and has spent a number of years working in Sweden.
Good morning Dr Rose.
PR Good morning, please call me Pam.
KK Okay Pam, how did you become involved in this archaeological dig?
PR I was invited to join the project this summer mainly because of my expertise in Viking history. Many of your readers will know that over the years a number of Viking artefacts have been unearthed in this area. Farmers have found items on their land and a few years ago someone found a Viking armband whilst walking along the river.
KK Did you believe from the outset that you were digging in the right place? Over the years arguments have raged between academics regarding the location of the battle site.
PR It’s true that many historians believed that the battle must have taken place further along the river to the east of Drogheda. Local legend suggests that an invading army came across the sea from England and that the battle took place nearer to the coast.
KK Couldn’t an invading army have sailed their ships up the River Boyne?
PR It’s true that ships could have come up the river as far as Drogheda, but it’s unlikely they would have been able to navigate much further. The landscape was much different then, there would have been thick forest where the fields are today and the banks of the river would have been tree lined. Drogheda was not established then, but it would undoubtedly have made a perfect place for ships to anchor safely.
KK Dr Orlagh Gairne from the National Museum was running the dig. I understand that you are old friends. How was it working with such a distinguished historian?
PR Indeed, Dr Gairne and I go back a long way. We have not worked together for many years. She is an expert in her field, but my knowledge was invaluable to both the project and to those working on the site.
KK You lived in Sweden for a number of years. Was this move from England for family reasons or was it purely a professional decision?
PR I have no family in Sweden. I went there because I was offered a position at the Department of Archaeology and Classical studies at Stockholm University. I spent most of my time excavating Birka, one of the first real towns to develop in Sweden. Birka is on the island of Björkö situated on Lake Mälaren just outside Stockholm. This UNESCO World Heritage site is rich in archaeology. My colleagues Dr Sven Larsson and Nils Holmgren have dedicated their lives to discovering the secrets that remain hidden in this rich landscape.
KK You talk passionately about your time in Sweden. Do you intend to return and carry on your work there?
PR Only for holidays. My work in Sweden is done and now it’s time to move on and find something new. Working here in Ireland this summer has been an extraordinary experience. I’ve been truly inspired and intend to remain in Dublin for a little while longer.
KK You are working on a book. Can you tell us anything about it?
PR It’s not a novel, but an academic review of the Viking influence on the development of early Dublin. Did you know for example that Dublin was a Viking slaving centre? People captured from England and the continent were brought here to be sold into slavery.
KK I didn’t know that. Is this the direction in which you see your future going, writing books about this period in history?
PR No, not really. It’s something that I’m interested in at the moment. To tell you the truth, I prefer to be out in the field working with soil under my fingernails. We’ll just have to wait and see what the future has in store for me.
KK Do you intend to remain in Ireland for the foreseeable future?
PR Yes I do, but not indefinitely. There are many interesting opportunities opening up in Ireland, the UK and on the continent. I’m not sure at this point where I might end up.
KK Will you be working with Dr Gairne on her next project? She wants to establish the location of an Iron Age settlement close to where the M1 Bridge crosses the river Boyne.
PR I’m aware of her intentions, but I don’t expect to be invited to take part. If significant Viking artefacts are unearthed then I can’t rule out offering my services, but by then I should be well into writing my book.
KK Thank you Pam for taking part in this interview. I wish you well for the future and look forward to a signed copy of your book.
Katherine Kinsella, Peoples Independent Irish news.